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| Stella Cameron Writers Workshop - 3/23/00 |
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Cissy - 
- 3/23 at 9:02pm EST
Laydolite - logged on. - 3/23 at 9:06pm EST
Cissy - Hi Laydolite 
Laydolite - Hello everyone 
)
TessaMae - logged on - 3/23 at 9:08pm EST
Laydolite - This is my first time in a chat room like this.
stella - logged on. - 3/23 at 9:09pm EST
Cissy - Hi TessaMae - welcome
Laydolite - Hi TessaMae and stella
Cissy - Well, make yourself comfortable, Laydolite. And feel free to ask questions
Cissy - Hi Stella
Laydolite - Thanks
stella - hi
TessaMae - Hi everyone. This is my first time in a chat room, too.
Cissy - Well you picked a good one, Tessa 
stella - welcome, tessa
Lana - logged on - 3/23 at 9:11pm EST
Cissy - Hi Lana
TessaMae - Thanks everyone for making me feel welcome. I'm looking forward to this.
Lana - Hello Everyone!
Laydolite - Hello Lana
Bev - logged on - 3/23 at 9:12pm EST
Cissy - Hi Bev
Lana - I, too, am looking forward to participation in the workshop. It's my first online--my first ever, actually.
stella - hi, lanba
Laydolite - mine too )
Bev - hi all
Laydolite - hi Bev
stella - that should read, Lana!
TessaMae - Hi Bev..
stella - Warning here--I keep getting kicked off for a few seconds at a time
Lana - I, too, am looking forward to participation in the workshop. It's my first online--my first ever, actually.
stella - If one of you misses something--I take it the transcript will pick it up, right, Cissy?
Cissy - oh no, Stella - is it your AOL connection or the room?
Lana - I was kicked off also.
Cissy - Yes, Stella
stella - the primary topic for the evening is Characterization, but I'll take questions on other topics.
Laydolite - hi Bev
stella - I think it's wonderful aol--you know how that goes.
stella - Lana, if it happens again, give it a second before you go all the way out and back in
stella - Cissy--I think you're hiding from me!
Bev - I don't know, it just told me I was off too for a second there
stella - We wom
Lana - OK, I've been having browser problems but I think I'll be OK.
Laydolite - I just hit refresh and that worked for me
Cissy - LOL, me? I'm here plain as day!
stella - We wpm
stella - We won't let anyone know why
Cissy - what did it say, Bev?
Lana - lol
stella - hah--you're here because you have lots of witnesses and I'm too smart to act out in public
Lana - It told me the connection with the server had been reset.
TessaMae - I decided not us use my AOL connection as it kicks me off too often and I don't want to miss anything.
Cissy - lol...oh you mean that little something I have to send you? 
stella - Layd(sure you want me to call you that?) refresh does work most of the time.
Cissy - "Update" down at the bottom might be your best bet
Laydolite - Vicki works too )
Bev - just that it had disconnected
stella - Oh, Cissy, THAT little thing? Not to worry, our deadline draweth very close but what the hay, we'll only put a few hundred people out when there's a big gap in a certain publication...
Bev - but when I hit update, there you were all were /grin
Laydolite - Laydolite short for Lady of Lightning
Lana - I //love these icons!
Lana - uh oh
stella - //evil grin--don't know the icon--but I'm gonna call you Light,, Lady Light
stella - 
Cissy - Bite your tongue woman! We'll put out no one you'll get it
clyons - logged on - 3/23 at 9:20pm EST
Laydolite - that works )
Bev - I'm on the prodigy internet connection, which is usually better than my other one
Lana - I 
these icons!
stella - Now this little world knows what a 
I am.
Lana - Great, worked that time.
Cissy - Yep, Stella - you have us suitably cowed
stella - I cow not a soul--I'm a pushover. Are we ready to work?
Lana - Yes!
Bev - um, should we all bring a cyber-apple for the teacher next time? //grin
Laydolite - Ready
Cissy - Hi clyons
K - logged on - 3/23 at 9:23pm EST
stella - There are two books I'd like you to consider getting. Old but wonderful books. I want 2 apples from you, Bev--from Harry and David.
stella - Hi clyons
clyons - Hi all
TessaMae - ready...
Sara - logged on - 3/23 at 9:23pm EST
Bev - harry & david???
stella - Maren Elwood--Characters Make Your Story and Robert Newton Peck-Fiction is Folks.
Cissy - Welcome sara & K
stella - Hello, Sara
stella - Hi K
Laydolite - Hi sara and k and clyons
K - Hi folks, sorry i'm late
Sara - HI, sorry, I am late
stella - I've listed two books I hope each of you will buy and read. We're discussing characterization--loosely, but I'll entertain other questions.
TessaMae - Hi Sara, K, and Clyons
stella - Characters are the basis for story. More so in some genres than others and absolutely without doubt or deviation in any form of romance.
stella - Cissy--do you want to use some form for questions or shall we expect folks to wait for a g/a from me?
Cissy - what will work best for you, Stella?
stella - The old saying that fact is stranger than fiction holds up. But Fiction, and Peck says, is folks. We take real people, or bits and pieces of all sorts of people pasted together, and make them even larger than life.
stella - Let me finish my first thoughts, then take questions, etc.
stella - We have to know our people before we can write about them. I used
stella - to construct lengthy character lists--apperance, a day when absolutely nothing unusual happens (character in neutral)
stella - what they like, dislike, kind of music, health, favorite foods, on and on--thenn I discovered that when I knew them
stella - better--i.e. as the story evolved--they weren't at all what I had expected. So, I'm suggesting that you start with some rough conclusions about character and flesh out more slowly.
stella - There are one or two rules (my own!) about choosing characters. Don't try to write the same types of characters you read in books you love.
stella - Those characters are the brain children of another mind and however well you think you know the work, you can only be in your own head.
maecb - logged on. - 3/23 at 9:31pm EST
stella - If you decide you want a rough, tough hero who eats nails for breakfast, washed down with a pint of fresh blood, who then goes to find "him a woman" to lay and abuse (of course he's going to shape up later due to the wonders of the heroine)
Cissy - everyone, remember to click "update" occasionally. Some browsers will time you out if you're idle too long
Cissy - Hi maecb
stella - and you think you can make him into a hero--good luck. I can't do it. I can write a hard (!) man who has a reason to be tough but who manages to cover his foibles at least enough to be moderately acceptable. He's an actor not ready to reveal himself fully. I LIKE him because he knows he's got a long way to go. He doesn't even start off knowing if he wants to change, but I get to make sure he does
Lana has timed out.
stella - Point, be very careful in the selection of your people.
stella - When choosing a heroine, don't choose someone you read about, or even your best friend in total, keep on remembering the golden rule of fiction. Characters must change, so you have to start with a character who has a lot of growing to do.
stella - Same for villains--I am absolutely enthralled by villains who are disgusting but I like to see little chinks in the armor of some of them. Occasionally I redeem a villain, but mostly I give 'em a reason (other than insanity--insanity is weak characterization) to be as rotten as they are. On the other hand, don't be shocked if I paint the picture as black as it gets for these people, and relish doing them in before the story's over. Now I need a little breather. Lets have some questions. ga
stella - ga
Sara - ?
stella - ga, Sara
Cissy - Okay, guys - if you'll type ? to line up for questions I'll call on you in turn
Cissy - Sara, you're first
stella - thanks, Cissy--thought you might be off writing something...
Cissy - 
Stella
Sara - Stella, I hear what you are saying. My problem is that my villains become redeemed
TessaMae - ?
Sara - maybe I like those black characters better than the 'good guys'
stella - Sara: Perhaps my comments on the all black villain overshadowed my first comments on the redeemed villain
stella - Some villains can be redeemed, some can't
Sara - Hmm, I think that it is possible that my bent is towards seeing a little good in everyone.
stella - If a villain has killed, manipulated, shown no compassion for another human and doesn't give a darn what he/she does to gain the personal end, then I'm convinced they don't have to be redeemed. Some others do because
Sara - I cannot write a totally black person
Sara - black in the sense of character <G>
stella - they are victims of previous circumstances and don't like what they've done.
stella - I get very attached to some villains
Lana - logged on - 3/23 at 9:41pm EST
Cissy - maybe that's because there aren't many (any?) totally black characters. Everyone has a soft spot somewhere. Even if it's perverse.
Cissy - wb Lana
Lana - Thanks, memory test fail, system rebooted.
Sara - /ga
Cissy - Tessa, your question's up next.
stella - and when I do, I really enjoy sinking into the mire with them, but I will help 'em out if I want to. I like my villains, too, and if you stick 100% to "rules" you will follow the theory that a shade of gray is better than black or white. My theory is that "rules" iron the wonderful wrinkles out of fresh fiction.
maecb - Hi room, I keep getting frozen out lol
Cissy - If anyone wants to ask a question, please type ? and I'll call on you in turn
Johnise - logged on. - 3/23 at 9:43pm EST
Cissy - glad you unstuck yourself, maecb
stella - Cissy, did you miss Tessa Mae?
K - ?
Johnise - Hi, all!
TessaMae - What about starting with a zodiac sign? I read that it might be a good start on developing personality?
Cissy - Hi Johnise
Johnise - Cissy, Ann emailed me about this chat! Looks pretty neat!
Cissy - Nope, I called on her and there she is 
TessaMae - I'm just a little slow or shy...new at this???
K - My question is a bit off the topic, but it is something that I would really like to know.
stella - Whatever works for you, TessaMae. That wouldn't be a place I could start. I plan to discuss how plot and character grow together (possibly next month) and that means I create in my head and with my eyes. I'm sure you'll find the system useful if it works for you. ga
stella - TessaMae--you're still on, I think. Does what I've written make sense?
Cissy - go ahead, K
Cissy - oops, hang on in case Tessa has a followup
TessaMae - Yes, it does.
K - Does the hero always have to have been devastated by another woman in his past?
stella - Please don't be shy, Tessa--we'll keep going.
stella - Absolutely not, K!
stella - And that's not off topic. This type of inner conflict
stella - makes my toes curl--unless it's beautifully handled
K - I'm with you that.
stella - What a wimp to think, "I've been hurt, poor me, but now I have a perfect excuse never to get too involved with another woman"
stella - GA
Cissy - There's no one else in line - would someone else like to ask a question?
Lana - I have a question.
clyons - ?
stella - ga, Lana
Cissy - go ahead, Lana (clyone's you'll follow her)
Lana - I tried fleshing out a character, but the character still didn't feel real to me.
stella - I'm an impatient devil!
stella - 
Cissy -
Cissy - lol
stella - Other than?
stella - Oh, sorry, Lana--I see it now.
Lana - Other than writing a description--dialogue maybe?
stella - Do you mean you fleshed the character out before or after you started writing?
Lana - before
stella - Ah, I think that's where your problom comes from.
Lana - So fleshing a character out is something I should do as the story progresses?
stella - Try this? Do a brief "play" with each character. Take pen and pad and waffle on bout 'em. Talk to them in dialogue and see how they answer. Make sure they don't sound just like you.
stella - gimme a little time here, lana--I'm not always the fastest kid on the block!
stella - BTW, that's another thing to avoid like the plague, characters who all "sound" the same.
Lana - Lol, I'll try it.
Cissy - How do you avoid that?
Cissy - Oops! clyons - your question is next!
stella - After you've written a few pages for each character and you're starting to feel comfortable, introduce them to each other. Let them talk to each other. Then you're going to add the conflict, the single bone they each fight to control, and watch them come to life
stella - you'll be amazed to see how characters take off once you start to know then. And don't be afraid when a character suddenly
stella - s you a curve. That's the really good stuff. That's how they develop true depth--and the plot and every other story element grows with them.
stella - Does that give you enough, Lana?
Lana - Yes, I like that idea. Thanks!
stella - Good. GA
stella - Is there an icon for a slow handclap?
stella - Like a one-handed handclap?
maecb has timed out.
Cissy - well, you can pretend that is one hand clapping
Johnise has timed out.
stella - I think you're up, clyons
stella - smarty pants, Cissy
clyons - I think you just answered it, my problem is the oposite my characters have become so strong it's their book
Cissy - congratulations
clyons - My last input was clear back in the first chapter
stella - clyons, you can't let that happen!
Cissy - lol, see this is why Stella's the writer and not me
clyons - *LOL* too late!
stella - No, we haven't answered that question, we just think we have.
stella - I frequently hear people tell me their characters take over. That's different from discovering a new facet to a character.
stella - Never allow the little power hungry fiends to steal your thunder!
stella - Whatever happens, only happens because you allow it. If the characters "take over" then the plot is getting away from you. Clyons, please give me an example of what happens to you.
stella - GA, clyons
Lana - Anyone, what does GA stand for?
clyons - Well He wakes me up in the middle of the night with a "I would never have done that" and I wind up rewriting awhole chapter
Cissy - GA=go ahead
stella - BTW, I have a very strong character myself at the moment and he's been trying to tow me around by the ear--ruining my plot, btw so I'm not letting him get away with it
stella - Oh, that's hyterical.
Laydolite - go ahead?
Lana - thx
stella - Now, to thine own self be true! YOU wake YOU up in the night thinking "he would never do that, darn it, I've got to rewrite the chapter." I know, I do it all the time--I think that's the great stuff.
clyons - I don't think it is the plot getting away from me , but it sure can be irritating, I think he is the better writer, or is that just my "writers voice" and not the character at all?
stella - GA
stella - Ouch, if you allow self-doubt to overwhelm you (I never do this, hah, hah) you're going
stella - o much, clyons.
stella - I rather think you're a fine writer who will do nothing but improve. you're just working very hard to be the best you can be.
stella - Lana, do you understand GA as go ahead, now?
stella - ga
clyons - ty, but I think I shourld introduce you to Solomon, the little pest
Cissy - Who else has a question?
Bev - ?
Cissy - go ahead, Bev
Bev - okay, I'm confused and pondering something here
Lana - Is this one of a series of workshops, or an individual workshop?
Bev - if we're supposed to get the characters their head, so to speak, how do we know when we've lost control of them?
Lana - sorry, didn't realize that would go through when I clicked update. 
Bev - that was supposed to be "give them their head" oye.
Lana - Yes, I understand go ahead now & understand what the update button does.
stella - Bev--I'm here, just thinking?
Cissy - I'll answer your question, Lana and let Stella concentrate on Bev's. This is the beginning of a series of workshops. 3rd Thursday of the month
Bev - so am I <g>
Cissy - (even tho this one was on the 4th Thu)
stella - Okay, I don't think we los
Bev - I'm asking this because I have a couple that I keep rewriting a story on and it never occured to me that they might be "out-of-control"
stella - lose control, I think we let it slip away.
stella - This is much more complex than it seems.
stella - When we're having problems with the story in some other area, it's easy to be going through the motions with characters.
stella - take a long look at that story and decide if you really want to tell it at all. Maybe it's dead but you keep trying to bring it back to life. For now
stella - I'd really like you to consider tucking it in the "drawer" and starting something else. You can go back later.
stella - GA
Bev - that's probably true
Bev - the other problem i keep having with it related to this is that the hero is clear in my head but the heroine isn't
stella - It's so hard to put a story aside when you've invested a lot, but in the end you'll be grateful.
stella - ga
Bev - and nothing I do brings her more to life, if you know what i mean
stella - Ah, the hero/heroine dilemma
stella - The hero will always tend to be somewhat more clear because you are probably
stella - more interested in him. Some think the heroine merely stands in for the reader. Goes through the motion, so to speak, so the reader can imagine herself in the heroine's shoes while the hero develops.
Cissy - do you agree with that, Stella?
stella - that makes for a hollow character. We must be sure the reader is going to cheer the heroine on. If the reader is thinking, "I wouldn't do that," fine, as long as you've made a firm foundation for the character--made sure they are IN character.
stella - ga
Bev - i've heard that a lot but somehow I also tend to feel in the heroes shoes, sort of
Bev - ga
stella - Cissy, I'm sorry I missed your question. Do I agree with what, please?
Cissy - you answered it with your next sentence (whether or not the heroine is just a standin for the reader)
stella - Bev: I'm far more the hero than the heroine, most of the time, I enjoy writing in the male voice--whtever that means?
stella - Cissy--I don't beleive the heroine is a standin for the reader--I do think the reader should be able to identify with the heroine.
Cissy - Who has a question?
Bev - personally I've never been able to understand the difference between standin and identifying
stella - Have I managed to overload everyone?
K - ? Just a comment, really
Lana - No, this has been interesting and thought-provoking.
stella - Stand in means just going through the motions for a reader who actually replaces the heroine with herself. Identify means a reader sympathizes and understands theheroine.
TessaMae - No, I'm "soaking" it all up. Alot of good info.
clyons - You've made some very good points, thank you, stella.
Cissy - go ahead, K
Laydolite - I agree with Lana, I have a few charaters that I'm going to "flesh out"
stella - Thank you. Is that clearer now, Bev?
K - Bev - I find that I have to want to be the heroine in a story or want to live the life that she lives, whether I am reading that story or writing it.
stella - sorry, K. ga
Bev - I think so, but they still sound like the same thing too
Bev - there
stella - I understand one hundred per cent, K
Bev - see, that's where I'm an anomaly I think
stella - When I'm writing, I become each character, even the ones I detest. I move about with them. That's the best way I can describe that.
Bev - there are very few romance heroines that I truly "want to be"
stella - ga
stella - Sometimes sexuality and characterization
Cissy - Does anyone else have a question?
Lana - If the reader merely follows a character's movement, instead of sympathizing with that character, there's the danger the reader will become apathetic, and lay the story down, I think.
clyons - then Bev, perhaps you are writing what you want to write rather than what you are meant to write
stella - can be a problem in the self-identity area. That's the perfect example of a place where the writer must step outside the comfort zone and be "with" the character.
Cissy - is there a difference, clyons? (real question, not a challenge )
Bev - explain more what you mean, cylons
jerilyn - logged on. - 3/23 at 10:27pm EST
stella - Lana: You're right--completely--that's when the writer says, bye-bye to the reader. It becomes a boring story.
Bev - I do tend to "identify" more with the hero's roles usually
clyons - Yes I think there is. We often pick the genre we most enjoy reading but that is not always where we find our strongest voice
stella - Bev and Cissy--how do you feel about that?
clyons - If you are more comfortable with the hero, try a male private eye,
Bev - weeelllll, i've never truly wanted to write romances, primarily because I enjoy reading them too much
clyons - or apoliceman or whatever something that does not require strong heroine involvment
stella - There are so many genres within the genre so there's really no limit on the writer's options.
Bev - however, the concept of having a story with a "couple" in it also feels completely foriegn to me too <VBG>
Cissy - I think it makes sense, actually. I would love to write romance but whenever I write it turns into something else entirely dark/southern gothic/psychological stuff. So it's probably true that our voice isn't always where we want it to be
Bev - actually, what I said earlier isn't exactly true
stella - As aside here--forgive me, plese? You are such interesting writers,
Sara - southern gothic, cissy?
Cissy - oh yeah, Sara - I'll have to let you read my stuff sometime
Laydolite - ?
stella - Ah, the draw of the southern gothic. I like to work with that atmosphere in contemporary suspense.
Bev - I do identify with one heroine type - say like a Christina Dodd heroine
Lana - I like to write about death and dying. When I write about death and dying, I really write about living.
stella - ga laydolite
Bev - but her stories are almost role reversals from "traditional" romance roles
Cissy - Remembering my role here - let's see, stella has an aside and Laydolite has a question
Bev - southern gothic?
Laydolite - My server is slow and I am sorry for that ...
Laydolite - my question is has anyone here suffered from what I will call
Laydolite - writer's overflow- opp of writer's block? ga
stella - Never, never complain about that, Lite!
stella - When I'm asked what I fear most I (being a bit flip) usually say I'm afraid of dying before I get all the stories told.
Laydolite - I get so many ideas all the time that I can't seem to work on any one thing
stella - Now there is a problem here, though
Laydolite - drives me nuts sometimes )
stella - Of course it drives you nuts. You have to go through a selection process
jerilyn has timed out.
stella - you have to decide which story is screaming the loudest to be toldfirst
stella - you'll know it when you stay very quiet inside and listen--someof the voices will clamor up front. Take them and tell the others to go play for a few months. Then, when those bad greedy souls keep popping
stella - up, make notes, put them in the appropriate folder, and be ready to go through the process again when the current story is done. You'll hve all that
stella - good stuff to work with.
stella - GA
Laydolite - So far that is what I have done...right now i have childrens ideas
stella - Cissy--I think my husband is about to mutiny
Laydolite - but all 8 of them are screaming pretty loud )
stella - actually expects to eat now and then.
Laydolite - lol
stella - Lite--now it's time for you to be the boss
Cissy - Okay guys that's our cue to wrap up!
Cissy - Can I get some feedback from you all on topics you'd like to see covered at in our next sessions?
Laydolite - sure
clyons - Thank you Stella!
stella - We have a date for the third Thursday of each month, right Cissy?
Laydolite - now or email you?
Cissy - This has been a great workshop, btw, and a wonderful group!!
Bev - very interesting, Stella
Lana - Thanks for sharing your time and expertise, Stella. I'll be here next month.
TessaMae - Thank you, Stella.
Cissy - Yes Stella, 3rd Thursday of each month
K - Thanks Stella
Cissy - Laydolite, you can email me if you'd like time to think it over
Laydolite - Thank you Stella
Laydolite - Thanks and good night to all )
Cissy - Yes, Stella - thanks for sharing your time with us. Sara had to go but said tell you how much she got from this
stella - Absolutely wonderful group. Thank all of you. Please let us know your pressing needs.
stella - Ladolite--toss out a topic now, please
stella - I was thinking about continueing character and adding motivation. What do you think?
Lana - sounds good
Cissy - Stella, I'd like to put in a request for moving the story along. I can plot and I can characterize (I think!) but I have trouble moving from scene to scene. I get stuck places. My timing's off.
Laydolite - I have just started on working more on description
Laydolite - Cissys is better
Lana - I need adjectives...millions of adjectives...
Stella - logged on. - 3/23 at 10:46pm EST
K - I like the motivation topic, and the dreaded inner conflict.
Stella - Okay--we'll jump ahead and deal with transitions/pacing. How does that sound?
Laydolite - great
Lana - Sounds fine.
K - That's a good one
TessaMae - Sounds good to me.
Cissy - sounds good Stella - I think we should put all these things (motivation, description, etc.) on our list
clyons - sounds good, will look forward to it.
Stella - Okay, pacing/transitions, it is. K--motivation and dreaded inner conflict to follow
Sara has timed out.
Cissy - thanks again, Stella
K - Thanks Stella
Stella - Good night to each of you and thanks for coming. I've enjoyed myself and learned, too.
Lana - I'll be here next month--and happy writing until then!
Laydolite - Thanks here again bye all
Bev - bye, all, and thanks Stella
Laydolite - 
- 3/23 at 10:49pm EST
Cissy - thanks for coming everyone - I'll send out reminders next month
